Thanks Tom another insightful piece. Years ago in a poor working class West Heidelberg school, near that great bastion of truth which is La Trobe Uni, I was having a lot of trouble with Y8 & Y9's. It was the first time I encountered that all too common phrase these days "evidence based". Bill Rogers was the evidenced based behaviour guru back then & maybe still is? Anyway, I was desperate, so decided to read the "evidence" - a couple books plus VHS tapes and two weeks later I learnt all of his strategies. Then 4 weeks of implementation of those strategies - NOTHING worked! In the end I just did the best I could, trying to make maths lessons interesting and engaging as i could. The thing that came closest to working for the whole class (but not always) was our Maths Task center of around 300 hands-on problems. One of the teachers had organised a room and a sequence for every Y7-9 student to work through -1period/week, over the 3 years - Records were kept. This was the closest to class room management and engagement that I got to at that school.
Thanks for the comment George, always interesting to hear a historical perspective of classroom management politics in light of what is going on now. Classroom management will always be a reality in a profession that is involved in unwanted interventions into people's lives. I am thinking that for those students who might not see the value or purpose of education the work of the teacher will always involve some of this.
Wonderful! In fact 'control' is regarded as anathema to engagement in the Self Determination theory, my favourite theory for understanding motivation. Researchers have shown that teachers have a natural tendency towards, and preference for, control, especially when stressed, and it is that attempt at control that actually makes engagement harder.
I can definitely relate to this during stressed times! It's much easier to revert to engrained ways of doing things. Out of interest, where do you see the role of "control" in the role of the teacher?
Do you mean whether teachers feel controlled? That is actually regarded as a significant impost on engagement both by teachers and students. Teachers who feel controlled are less engaged and more likely to try to control students. If you mean, if or how teachers should exert control, it is of course at that level of necessity where students require the imposition of boundaries for the sake of safety or the rest of the class. It is much much harder for a teacher to avoid controlling behaviours outside those areas when they feel controlled by the system and/or the school, in for example the need to demonstrate that they are 'successful' via student pass statistics. As we have discussed at other times, I was lucky to neither feel too controlled by the system by virtue of age and 'success', nor by my last two schools because the Principal believed in me.
Apologies for the delay in responding to this one Mark! I guess my question was more directed to how teachers might enact power in their role, what might be an appropriate exercise of power in their role, and where power might limit the goals of education so you have responded to that very well.
Indeed very lucky to be in that experience. I believe that the push for statistics bypasses important relational interactions between staff and leadership to work through the challenges they experience in their schools. I believe it can be all too easy to make interpretations of data without the input of the individuals it is speaking about and am being challenged myself to continually believe in my colleagues!
I like the video idea, but the ‘more guides’ just isn’t going to move the needle far. Seems like more paperwork from a paper tiger is unlikely to affect teacher habits or theories of practice in any meaningful way.
Agree with both of you about bank of online resources being a blunt instrument. Without teacher initiative at the school level, responding to context, nothing will change. Also true Tom that engagement needs more than control (although routines are integral). Peps McRea argues convincingly for this. Sense of belonging and relevance also crucial, as you say.
Well said. 'Sense of belonging and relevance' are one of the three pillars of student motivation according to Self Determination Theory. And routines, while not enough on their own are at least supportive of one of the other pillars of motivation, a sense of competence.
I hear you there Mark! Gets me thinking how I might be able to instill a greater sense of belonging in my Year 9 mathematics class this year 🤔. What have you seen done previously to achieve this within a class setting? Or would you consider it more of a whole-school approach kind of thing?
Sense of belonging is dependent on every level; systemic, school, class and personal. Each level supports and defends the others. Lack of belonging at the systemic and school level is hard to overcome. It is often the source of problematic students but one does what one can. Belonging applies to teachers too is also a source of burnout when there is no support for belonging at school or systemic level. In my classes the support begins with liking and respecting each student and valuing their personal contribution. Students feeling they are liked is very powerful. In the Queensland Schools Longitudinal Reform Study by Allen Luke et al, relationships, ie support for belonging was found to be one of the pedagogical practices that teachers did best. And yet in too many cases, it is not enough, because of the lack of belonging at other levels, particular the systemic.
These are great thinking points. It's bringing to mind the current challenges experienced in the VCE Vocational Major space. It's hard to find ways internally and externally to challenge some of the ingrained cultures that work more to alienation that belonging. I feel as though I'm slowly swimming sideways in a rip, making little differences where I can but knowing I can't necessarily change the tides!
Hi Tom, best place to start is his little book 'Motivated Teaching', I use the ideas with my colleagues all the time. He conflates motivation with engagement. He has lots of resources that synthesise the book's thesis down as well. Scroll down here and the list of 'key ideas' and 'core drivers' are most useful. Your observations of your own practice would fit under 'core drivers' I would say. https://pepsmccrea.com/resources/motivation/
I had a colleague tell me recently that “Teachers can’t control student’s behaviour, we can only manage it.” Given the numerous quips I hear about teaching as a beginning teacher, it probably says something that I remembered this one. Reflecting now on what I took from McDonald’s book – I think I would amend that to “Teachers can’t control student’s behaviour. We can only manage the environment we meet them in and the relationships we build there.” But as you say, many factors influence student engagement – and a universal approach to management and / or engagement flies in the face of quite a lot of the principles of management and engagement and motivation etc.
Thanks for taking the time to share! I think these statements reflect something deep within teaching that teachers probably feel they know but is slightly unsettling to acknowledge. I remember once saying to a Year 7 class once that I couldn't "make" them do anything and the response in the room to this statement was really quite something. I feel that understanding this could be an important protective factor in keeping teachers in the game. Do you feel as though your experiences have also contributed to a change in your perspective in relation to student behaviour?
This is tricky territory, and extremely important for anyone interested in improving the school experience for both children and teachers. Like countless other aspects of teaching, 'classroom management' (aka control or leadership, take your pick) is necessary but not sufficient.
Initiatives like the one you mention here seem like expensive gaslights for both parents (teachers are incompetent and don't want to learn how to be more effective) and teachers (I'm practicing everything suggested by AERO and yet some students continue to disrupt learning... what is wrong with me?). By conflating control with engagement and pretending that compliance is the same thing as learning, Jason Clare is sidestepping the crux of what we are facing: an educational system that is in free-fall, with all the disaster and opportunity that come with it.
Regarding the 4 evidence-informed teaching practices from AERO, it is never what you do, it's the way that you do it (Ella Fitzgerald, 1939). Ten teachers could all 'establish a system of rules and routines from day one,' (#1), and yet the outcomes would be different in every class.
Do teachers want guides? Yes, but that's not always helpful either because they can oversimplify problems and discourage more meaningful, relationship-based solutions.
Do teachers perceive behaviour as not their entire responsibility? Yes, and rightly so, but as soon as teachers blame parents or society, we lose sight of the countless strategies we could employ as leaders in our classrooms. Considering teachers' embattled position is helpful but also disempowering from day to day.
Could it be that the culture of each classroom is as unique as the people who inhabit it? To the extent that teaching is in fact forcing an uninvited intervention into people's lives, the spoonful of sugar is the motivation and engagement that skilful teaching can offer. Perhaps classroom management is the spoon.
Thanks Tom another insightful piece. Years ago in a poor working class West Heidelberg school, near that great bastion of truth which is La Trobe Uni, I was having a lot of trouble with Y8 & Y9's. It was the first time I encountered that all too common phrase these days "evidence based". Bill Rogers was the evidenced based behaviour guru back then & maybe still is? Anyway, I was desperate, so decided to read the "evidence" - a couple books plus VHS tapes and two weeks later I learnt all of his strategies. Then 4 weeks of implementation of those strategies - NOTHING worked! In the end I just did the best I could, trying to make maths lessons interesting and engaging as i could. The thing that came closest to working for the whole class (but not always) was our Maths Task center of around 300 hands-on problems. One of the teachers had organised a room and a sequence for every Y7-9 student to work through -1period/week, over the 3 years - Records were kept. This was the closest to class room management and engagement that I got to at that school.
Thanks for the comment George, always interesting to hear a historical perspective of classroom management politics in light of what is going on now. Classroom management will always be a reality in a profession that is involved in unwanted interventions into people's lives. I am thinking that for those students who might not see the value or purpose of education the work of the teacher will always involve some of this.
Wonderful! In fact 'control' is regarded as anathema to engagement in the Self Determination theory, my favourite theory for understanding motivation. Researchers have shown that teachers have a natural tendency towards, and preference for, control, especially when stressed, and it is that attempt at control that actually makes engagement harder.
I can definitely relate to this during stressed times! It's much easier to revert to engrained ways of doing things. Out of interest, where do you see the role of "control" in the role of the teacher?
Do you mean whether teachers feel controlled? That is actually regarded as a significant impost on engagement both by teachers and students. Teachers who feel controlled are less engaged and more likely to try to control students. If you mean, if or how teachers should exert control, it is of course at that level of necessity where students require the imposition of boundaries for the sake of safety or the rest of the class. It is much much harder for a teacher to avoid controlling behaviours outside those areas when they feel controlled by the system and/or the school, in for example the need to demonstrate that they are 'successful' via student pass statistics. As we have discussed at other times, I was lucky to neither feel too controlled by the system by virtue of age and 'success', nor by my last two schools because the Principal believed in me.
Apologies for the delay in responding to this one Mark! I guess my question was more directed to how teachers might enact power in their role, what might be an appropriate exercise of power in their role, and where power might limit the goals of education so you have responded to that very well.
Indeed very lucky to be in that experience. I believe that the push for statistics bypasses important relational interactions between staff and leadership to work through the challenges they experience in their schools. I believe it can be all too easy to make interpretations of data without the input of the individuals it is speaking about and am being challenged myself to continually believe in my colleagues!
I like the video idea, but the ‘more guides’ just isn’t going to move the needle far. Seems like more paperwork from a paper tiger is unlikely to affect teacher habits or theories of practice in any meaningful way.
Do you think it's because teachers don't want guides? Is there a sense that teachers perceive the issue as not their entire responsibility?
Agree with both of you about bank of online resources being a blunt instrument. Without teacher initiative at the school level, responding to context, nothing will change. Also true Tom that engagement needs more than control (although routines are integral). Peps McRea argues convincingly for this. Sense of belonging and relevance also crucial, as you say.
Well said. 'Sense of belonging and relevance' are one of the three pillars of student motivation according to Self Determination Theory. And routines, while not enough on their own are at least supportive of one of the other pillars of motivation, a sense of competence.
I hear you there Mark! Gets me thinking how I might be able to instill a greater sense of belonging in my Year 9 mathematics class this year 🤔. What have you seen done previously to achieve this within a class setting? Or would you consider it more of a whole-school approach kind of thing?
Sense of belonging is dependent on every level; systemic, school, class and personal. Each level supports and defends the others. Lack of belonging at the systemic and school level is hard to overcome. It is often the source of problematic students but one does what one can. Belonging applies to teachers too is also a source of burnout when there is no support for belonging at school or systemic level. In my classes the support begins with liking and respecting each student and valuing their personal contribution. Students feeling they are liked is very powerful. In the Queensland Schools Longitudinal Reform Study by Allen Luke et al, relationships, ie support for belonging was found to be one of the pedagogical practices that teachers did best. And yet in too many cases, it is not enough, because of the lack of belonging at other levels, particular the systemic.
These are great thinking points. It's bringing to mind the current challenges experienced in the VCE Vocational Major space. It's hard to find ways internally and externally to challenge some of the ingrained cultures that work more to alienation that belonging. I feel as though I'm slowly swimming sideways in a rip, making little differences where I can but knowing I can't necessarily change the tides!
Thanks for the comment Kristy! Have you got any links to some specific work from Peps regarding this?
Hi Tom, best place to start is his little book 'Motivated Teaching', I use the ideas with my colleagues all the time. He conflates motivation with engagement. He has lots of resources that synthesise the book's thesis down as well. Scroll down here and the list of 'key ideas' and 'core drivers' are most useful. Your observations of your own practice would fit under 'core drivers' I would say. https://pepsmccrea.com/resources/motivation/
Thanks Kristy, yes it looks as though those bottom two core drivers link into what i was talking about. Might have to get onto purchasing this!
I had a colleague tell me recently that “Teachers can’t control student’s behaviour, we can only manage it.” Given the numerous quips I hear about teaching as a beginning teacher, it probably says something that I remembered this one. Reflecting now on what I took from McDonald’s book – I think I would amend that to “Teachers can’t control student’s behaviour. We can only manage the environment we meet them in and the relationships we build there.” But as you say, many factors influence student engagement – and a universal approach to management and / or engagement flies in the face of quite a lot of the principles of management and engagement and motivation etc.
Thanks for taking the time to share! I think these statements reflect something deep within teaching that teachers probably feel they know but is slightly unsettling to acknowledge. I remember once saying to a Year 7 class once that I couldn't "make" them do anything and the response in the room to this statement was really quite something. I feel that understanding this could be an important protective factor in keeping teachers in the game. Do you feel as though your experiences have also contributed to a change in your perspective in relation to student behaviour?
This is tricky territory, and extremely important for anyone interested in improving the school experience for both children and teachers. Like countless other aspects of teaching, 'classroom management' (aka control or leadership, take your pick) is necessary but not sufficient.
Initiatives like the one you mention here seem like expensive gaslights for both parents (teachers are incompetent and don't want to learn how to be more effective) and teachers (I'm practicing everything suggested by AERO and yet some students continue to disrupt learning... what is wrong with me?). By conflating control with engagement and pretending that compliance is the same thing as learning, Jason Clare is sidestepping the crux of what we are facing: an educational system that is in free-fall, with all the disaster and opportunity that come with it.
Regarding the 4 evidence-informed teaching practices from AERO, it is never what you do, it's the way that you do it (Ella Fitzgerald, 1939). Ten teachers could all 'establish a system of rules and routines from day one,' (#1), and yet the outcomes would be different in every class.
Do teachers want guides? Yes, but that's not always helpful either because they can oversimplify problems and discourage more meaningful, relationship-based solutions.
Do teachers perceive behaviour as not their entire responsibility? Yes, and rightly so, but as soon as teachers blame parents or society, we lose sight of the countless strategies we could employ as leaders in our classrooms. Considering teachers' embattled position is helpful but also disempowering from day to day.
Could it be that the culture of each classroom is as unique as the people who inhabit it? To the extent that teaching is in fact forcing an uninvited intervention into people's lives, the spoonful of sugar is the motivation and engagement that skilful teaching can offer. Perhaps classroom management is the spoon.